"Tell Me! Milestone" is a series that delves deep into the stories of two people (founder Nishioka) who have created milestone items, and Yoshida, who joined the company mid-career), by listening to their stories (Hagiwara, who runs with them in #WednesdayBudouzakaTraining).

This time, we'll finally be sharing the inside story behind the development of our running shorts, "Natty Shorts." As they say, necessity is the mother of invention...

The trigger was failure

Nishioka (hereinafter N): I've always loved apparel. I've made hats, T-shirts, and socks, so I thought I'd try pants. I wanted to suggest ways to coordinate and enjoy color matching and how to wear the items that can be found at milestone.

Hagiwara (hereinafter H): Last time we were talking about hats, I think you said that you had no intention of going into apparel.

N: There was a trigger. I think it was when Doi-san*1 ran the Omine Oku-Kado trail*2 and attempted to break the 20-hour FKT (Fastest Known Time). I went as Doi-san's support and photographer.

*1 We have Ryo Doi again, a leading Japanese trail runner.

*2 One of the Kumano Kodo trails, it is a training path for Shugendo pilgrims. It is approximately 100 km long, stretching from Kinpusenji Temple to Kumano Hongu Taisha Shrine.

Yoshida (hereinafter Y): 2021 was a year in which fewer trail running races were held due to the impact of COVID-19. You also talked about "Breaking_20" on your blog (you can read the blog here) .

N: That's right. The running shorts I was wearing at the time had a stretchy fabric, and I liked wearing them when I ran, but the pockets were a little shallow...

H: Hmm, I have a bad feeling about this (laughs).

N: After providing support at Tamaki Shrine towards the end of the race, I arrived at the finish line, crossing the Kumano River, in about 19 hours and 40 minutes, taking pictures on the rocky riverbank with both my SLR and my cell phone. Doi was also keeping an eye on the time as he went along. Halfway through, I realized, "Oh, I don't have my cell phone!" But I absolutely had to take pictures of the finish line, so even though I was worried about my cell phone, I couldn't just say, "Wait a minute, it's not here."

Y: I can't say that here (laughs).

N: I wanted Doi to finish the race feeling good. His friend Tetsuya Fukui from Gifu Prefecture and Norio Nakae from Tamaki Shrine were pacing him, so the three of us finished the race together. I snapped lots of pictures of Doi lying down and shaking hands with everyone.

Y: That's the picture I wanted to take.

N: Once the atmosphere had calmed down, we all took a commemorative photo with a timer...

"I'm sorry, but I actually dropped my cell phone," I confessed. I realized I was in trouble when I reached the last torii gate, so it must have happened somewhere between the riverbank and the finish line, in the 200 meters. However, the color of my cell phone cover was a grayish green that blended in with the color of the stones on the riverbank. I basically had my phone on silent mode, so no matter how many times someone called, I didn't say a word.

H: This is bad.

N: I told Doi, "I'm sorry to bother you after driving 100 kilometers, but can you help me look for it?" It was already getting dark. I had somewhat prepared myself for the worst, and thought that in the worst case scenario, I'd have to see everyone off, stay in the car overnight, and then take my time looking for it calmly the next day. I had a headlamp, but looking in the dark was difficult, and it was mentally draining.

Y: You're prepared to stay overnight.

N: Well, he said we should all look for it, and as expected, we looked for it for a while but couldn't find it right away. But then Fukui said, "I'm good at finding these kinds of things," and then he found it in about three minutes and said, "Found it!" Everyone said, "Whoa!" And then we were able to go home safely.

Y.H: That was good (laughs).

N: At that time, I realized that dropping my phone during a big challenge or a big event would be unacceptable. That's when I realized I needed pants with deep pockets so I wouldn't drop my phone.

H: I see. Yoshi (Yoshida), have you ever dropped your phone in the mountains?

Y: I don't think so (laughs). Before I started wearing Natty, the shorts I always wore weren't specifically designed for running, but they had a compartment (pocket) specifically for my phone, so I always kept my phone in there. I've certainly worn the shorts that Nishioka-san was wearing, so I know, but they only have two pockets in the front, and they're shallow. They have a zipper, but it's small.

N: I take a lot of photos, so I take my phone out and put it back in a lot. Whenever I get a chance, I want to take a photo right away. Sometimes my SLR isn't fast enough. Maybe the zipper wasn't closed properly when I dropped it.

Y: If I put my phone in my front pocket while I'm running, it gets all floppy and stiff.

H: It hits your thigh.

Y: They get in the way, and if they're not at the back of your body they'll swing around. The first concept I heard from Nishioka was that they were "specialized for running." That's reflected in the lack of front pockets and the short length. Front pockets are useful when doing fastpacking (a mountaineering style where you travel long distances with ultra-light gear that's light enough to run in), but he clearly said, "I want these to be running shorts," so "front pockets aren't necessary." I think it was clear that three pockets in the back would be enough, and that the short length was chosen to emphasize leg lift. Of course, another key point was that your phone won't fall out and is easy to put in.

N: I didn't think about a front pocket from the start. Even if I'm not running trails, I carry my phone, wallet, and keys when I'm running on the road every day, so I just wanted it to fit at least those things.

Y: To make the middle pocket deeper, the edges of the fabric are raised. It's called a "flashing," but in the first sample, it wasn't raised. It wasn't a flared fabric, just the part where the fabric changes, and it was the same depth as the two on the sides.

N: Of course, that would be cheaper, and it would take more effort to make it. While running up Budouzaka, someone suggested, "Why not make it so you can put a wind shell in it?" and we decided to use that suggestion. We thought it would be a unique feature to have a large pocket that can hold the wind shell, which you often take off and put on.

H: I don't think you'll find any other pockets this big anywhere else.

N: We don't have any pockets, and most other manufacturers' pockets are on the outside. They're made of elastic mesh that stretches a lot, so you can see things like gels. We wanted them to look stylish too. They're running shorts, but we wanted people to feel like they could wear them at the beach. I think we wanted the pockets to be on the inside so they didn't look like typical running shorts. That ended up being one of their features.

*Natty Shorts inside out

H: If this large pocket in the middle were on the outside, it would be very noticeable, but since it's on the inside, it doesn't look out of place.

N: This was a real pain for the sewing factory. I went to see the factory and the sewing process was incredibly complicated.

Y: I think this is complicated. I don't think Nissan will rise much.

Y: It also has a concealed zipper.

N: This one. If it's a normal zipper, it looks like it has a bug in it.

H: Insect?

N: The teeth (the part that connects the teeth). Welcome to the world of apparel (laughs). The zipper on the side is hidden and looks neat. I think they paid attention to even the smallest details like this.

Y: I didn't want a big zipper pull, even though I'd be opening and closing it while running. But if it was small, it would be difficult to use with gloves on, so I had them put a non-slip rubber on the end. I gave them detailed instructions on that point as well.

H: That's true! The handles on the sides and in the middle are different.

N: I really like this horizontal cell phone pocket. I wanted it to fit any brand of cell phone, and I made sure it would fit even bulky phone cases. It really doesn't shake around here. It doesn't bother me even when I'm running, so I'm really glad I put it in this position. It's also easy to take out and put in when taking photos.

The Swamp of Patterns

N: When I was making them, I first did my own research and development into what kind of running shorts were available on the market.

Y: R&D (research and development), right? (laughs)

N: I try to buy things that I think are good, both from domestic and overseas manufacturers. Whatever I make, I set a goal of making something like that, based on another company's product. It's not that I copy it, but it serves as a guideline for me to work towards. By doing that, if I get lost along the way, I can go back and remember what I was aiming for. The final product will be completely different, but it's just an image. That may be true for everything.

Y: It would be a mess. You have to start from scratch and do all sorts of things. I was very particular about the pattern. I asked a pattern maker I know (Mr. J) to come in. I've done planning in the apparel industry, but I've never worked as a pattern maker.

Y: For example, I didn't know how to fix the bulge in the front on the pattern, so Nishioka and I took turns trying them on and repeatedly told him how the tightness in a certain area bothered us, and he made adjustments again and again.He even went so far as to sew a sample and pinch it in a few millimeters at a time.

H: It's all about how to translate what you want into a two-dimensional pattern.

N: Nowadays, J-san is involved from the very beginning, but with the Natty Shorts, the pattern maker at the sewing factory made the shorts to a certain extent, and I told him what I wanted to do with them, so it was pretty much up to him. With Budouzaka, he really gave me a lot of feedback. Everyone was wearing a variety of shorts from different companies, so we lined them up and took photos so we could compare the shapes and silhouettes.

Y: You did.

N: Actually, there was a fabric I was thinking of using. It was a hot August, I think. There's a guy named Yoshida who sweats a lot. When he wore them and ran to test them, he got completely soaked with sweat. Sweat was dripping from the bottom hem.

Y: (bitter smile)

N: I really liked the color of this fabric, and I wanted to go with that, but I had to stop at the last minute. Our brand is unisex, so I want women to wear it too,

We didn't have the capacity or the system in place to make women's clothing. I thought women wouldn't like wearing this, and men wouldn't want to see women in that kind of clothing either, so it wasn't good. We had to start from scratch, choosing the fabric, but it was before mass production, so I'm glad we made the change.

Y: It has water-repellent properties, and quite a few people say that the fabric is good.

N: I'm glad I was able to do the test in the middle of summer. I'd be horrified if I hadn't done that test. It was the difference between 100% nylon and 100% polyester. I preferred 100% polyester. I like clothes, but honestly, I don't understand materials like polyester, polyurethane, spandex, etc. I've heard the names, but I only look at the care instructions. I studied fabrics, too, and only learned the basics, though I don't understand the deeper details. But I'm glad I learned that, and it will be useful in the future.

Y: Definitely. In the past, nylon was considered high-end and polyester was considered cheaper in apparel, but they're both synthetic fibers. I think polyester's status is rising because it can now be made with added functionality. Natty's polyester is really good. It's stretchy too.

N: It's stretchy and thick, so it's not flimsy. Looking at the brands overseas, I think overseas customers like thin fabrics. Ours is much sturdier.

Y: If it's too thin, it will stick to your skin if you sweat.

H: Coming from a sweat specialist, that carries weight. (laughs)

N: I was debating whether to add an inner liner as well. Because everyone has their own preferences. I didn't want to put in an inner liner with all the good intentions, only to have it cut off in the end. So I thought it would be better to keep it simple and let the customer choose their own inner liner to wear. I think I was able to do my best to make it at a good price. The production run is also a couple of orders of magnitude different from the major manufacturers. Just like the brightness, duration and price of a headlamp, I think the Natty has a good balance of design, function and price.

Y: When negotiating the price, Nishioka-san always says that he wants to sell at a price that he can sell at, which basically means that he wants it to be cheaper (laughs). But he doesn't want to sell it cheaply. He wants to set a price that people are willing to pay for the item. If it's an incredibly good item and it's incredibly expensive, it won't be well received in the market, so he always says that he wants to keep the price within a reasonable range for the item.

N: To do that, you have to study how much other companies are selling it for, how their products perform, and then incorporate features that other companies don't have, otherwise you'll fail. But we don't want to just sell cheap, we want to sell good products at good prices. We always think from the customer's perspective, so it's a shame when a product is good but too expensive. We want to have that excitement that makes customers think, "This is great, at this price, I can buy it!"

Y: With a fashion brand, it's not so much the price of the product, but the value of the brand, but this isn't fashion. It's an outdoor brand, so it's all about people using it.

H: It would be a waste to only wear fashionable clothes on special occasions.

Y: It's fine if you use it in a stylish way (laughs), but basically it's all about people using it.

N: I want people to pick it up.

Y: What I've realized since joining the company is that as a micro brand, there's no point in doing exactly the same thing as the big brands. It's fine if the big brands just make a lot of stuff cheaply. There's no point in us doing it at a slightly higher price. I think that the final product needs to have some kind of essence that the big brands and others aren't using. It's something to keep in mind.

N: I think you always want to maintain originality. I think that's the way to survive. If you copy others, you'll be weeded out, and people will compare prices. But we do it with our own stance and ideas. Of course, I think all the existing brands have that kind of thinking, and although our company is quite small, we try to operate with the same mindset. I think that's important.

M's Standard

N: Originally we had three sizes, S, M, and L, but because it's unisex, our female users are increasing, so we thought it would be better to make an XS rather than an XL, and added another size, XS. Compared to the other sizes, we don't sell as many XS sizes, but we value customers who fit that size, so we want to cover them. Because if women are wearing it, I think men are looking at it. The opposite may not be true, though.

Y: Hagi-san is watching, isn't he? (laughs)

N: The size is very important and quite difficult. I think that Milestone's M size and other manufacturers' M sizes are completely different. I think of myself as an M, so I make things based on the M standard.

Y: I'm often asked, "What size is best for Natty Shorts and Onion Feedy?" I always give them a template answer to make it easy to understand: if they tell me how many centimeters they are tall and how much they weigh, I'll generally answer with something like M or S. However, based on the height and weight of our staff, Nishioka, a man with an average build at 174cm and 68kg, wears a size M, while Yoshida, a man with a stocky build at 173cm and 70kg, wears a size L. Although the numbers are similar, the size you choose will vary depending on your body type and preferences, so I tell them it would be best if they could try it on in the store if possible.

H: If you just listen to the numbers, it really doesn't change at all.

Y: It depends on the thickness of the legs and the area around the hips, and if you take a photo of two people standing next to each other they look completely different, but if you just look at the numbers they look similar.

N: To a certain extent, I think that people who are masochistic would like to have other items that are masochistic as well.

Continued in Part 2